If the point of supporting Ukraine is to support the international order of respecting borders, then an absolutist interpretation would mean you stop at your border when repelling invaders.
On the other hand, that would certainly result in invaders loading up on personnel and materiel on their side of the border until they reached some critical mass for a re invasion.
A lot of people might not remember the first Gulf War where the international community defending Kuwait stopped at the Iraq border. I think it could be argued that was a mistake on multiple levels, even ignoring everything we know that came after.
It’s simply not credible for a group of countries responsible for constant invasions of other countries to claim to be defending borders or supporting any sort of international law. The US at this very moment is occupying a larger percentage of Syria than Russia is of Ukraine.
Nah it’s not just whataboutism, this is a conflict between NATO and Russia. NATO is claiming to have some moral superiority in this conflict, but it’s very obvious that NATO is fighting an imperialistic war for control of Ukraine.
Ah, yes of course. How could I miss how supplying the people of a sovereign nation with weapons and intelligence in a defensive ground war against a foreign invader is building an empire. Thank you for pointing out the obvious.
Ah yes, NATO is just altruistically helping the right wing regime that the west installed in Ukraine after overthrowing the legitimate democratically elected government. 🤡
Even if that were true (and I don’t think even Putin is still pretending that this is what his special operation is about), you think the right recourse is to invade that country and attempt to annex it into your empire? Killing hundreds of thousands in a war of attrition? Really amazing peaceful moves from the certainly democratically elected leftist Russian president, bravo.
You don’t have to take Putin’s word for it, the head of NATO has already admitted this publicly:
The background was that President Putin declared in the autumn of 2021, and actually sent a draft treaty that they wanted NATO to sign, to promise no more NATO enlargement. That was what he sent us. And was a pre-condition for not invade Ukraine. Of course we didn’t sign that.
The opposite happened. He wanted us to sign that promise, never to enlarge NATO. He wanted us to remove our military infrastructure in all Allies that have joined NATO since 1997, meaning half of NATO, all the Central and Eastern Europe, we should remove NATO from that part of our Alliance, introducing some kind of B, or second class membership. We rejected that.
So he went to war to prevent NATO, more NATO, close to his borders. He has got the exact opposite.
However, if you don’t trust a renowned political scientist like Mearsheimer, RAND published a whole study titled “Extending Russia” that explains in detail why the US wanted to provoke a conflict in Ukraine https://www.rand.org/pubs/research_reports/RR3063.html
Killing hundreds of thousands in a war of attrition?
The war could’ve been over within a month, but the west sabotaged negotiations. Pretty clear who wants this war to keep going. The war could’ve been avoided entirely if the west didn’t insist on NATO expansion and didn’t overthrow the government in Ukraine.
That is a nice big quote you got there. But it doesn’t say anything about right-wing governments, coups or anything the like. And I said, for the sake of the argument I’ll pretend with you it is true.
Of course, surrendering is a great defensive strategy. I’m sure WW2 would have been a whole lot shorter if Stalin just capitulated right away. But I’ve got another brain tickler for you. The aggressor can end a war immediately, by not even starting it :)
What on earth are you talking about occupying Syria?
Edit: they’re misconstruing the 32-country military coalition that’s been trying to degrade Da’esh since 2014 as the US military by itself occupying sovereign territory.
Some may remember the breathless daily & weekly map updates on the news showing areas controlled by Da’esh changing. Might remember the coalition partnering with various groups of differing militancy & reliability. I think including us (the coalition) fucking over Iraqi Kurds…? I believe because Syria hated them? Or loved them?
So, y’know, absolutely nothing like Russia’s completely unprovoked, unilateral decision to invade Ukraine because Putin was afraid of Ukraine getting too chummy with NATO countries, possibility even considering joining NATO.
So your contention is that Nation A considering joining an alliance that Nation B doesn’t like - not actually joining, just considering - is a provocation worthy of military invasion?
See, that’s an entirely different statement. Threatening to join Russia’s geopolitical rival’s military alliance while bordering Russia, is provocation. The acts in Donbas since 2014 are provocation. Is it “worthy of military invasion”? I don’t believe so. The proto-fascist Russian government is clearly not acting entirely out of pure will and self defense, and I’ll be the last to defend it since I have loved ones directly suffering under that government. But it’s important to frame things correctly, and yes, threatening to join NATO while bordering Russia is a huge provocation.
Particularly, NATO has no history of defensiveness (as far as I know it has never intervened for the defensive purposes it’s supposed to uphold), but it has a history of offensiveness. Yugoslavia and Libya can both attest to that, and extra-officially (technically not NATO interventions even if many NATO members participated one way or another), countries such as Iraq can also attest. The case of Iraq is a perfect example of what unprovoked invasion in modern times is, and we are still forced to see libs fall heads over heels for a fucking Dick Satan Cheney endorsement to Kamala “most lethal army in the world” Harris.
So, yes, when a country bordering you chooses to join a historically aggressive military alliance that openly challenges you, that’s huge provocation. And it’s important to state so when we talk about the war in Ukraine.
The US is in Syria against the will of the legitimate government of Syria that’s recognized by the UN. This is an invasion and a violation of the sovereignty of Syria. Period.
The fact that you rushed in to try and paint it as something other while bleating about Russia’s completely unprovoked, unilateral decision to invade Ukraine says everything we need to know about you.
I think we’re gonna have to agree to disagree as I see a fundamental difference between a multi national joint military operation targeting international terrorists and a unilateral military operation aimed at reconstituting the USSR.
There is no fundamental difference. International law states that countries are sovereign and cannot be invaded by other countries. Just because a bunch of bandits, who are currently involved in a literal genocide I might add, get together to do it in no way legitimizes it. The fact that you think might makes right is legitimate in one case and not the other shows that your position is hypocritical, and can be safely ignored.
then an absolutist interpretation would mean you stop at your border when repelling invaders
Amusingly, that was the interpretation I’ve heard some years ago over at reddit from poles malding about USSR marching to Berlin and kicking nazis out of their country in the process.
I would say an absolutist would be justified in crossing the border if they offer that land back at the end of hostilities in exchange for other concessions.
Even if Ukraine doesn’t reclaim all of their land they could offer Russia kursk for some other equal amount of Ukrainian land in any peace talks.
Otherwise if Russia refuses Ukraine is justified in keeping that land.
“The side that stays within its fortifications is beaten”
Napoleon Bonaparte
Not only do you need to strike at the enemy’s territories and hold it to win, you need to threaten to keep it if you want to restore your original borders. Going to the peace table with enemy cities your pocket is a classic way to negotiate for your own land back. The more Russian land the Ukranians take, the more likely we will see a restoration of old borders.
Funnily enough you quote the dude that first planned to ally with Russia but get swept into the prototype of modern geopolitics and attacked it, not staying within his fortifications, and that led to him and his empire being utterly and completely crushed. Though unlike current followers of the evolution of the same geopolitical strategy, he at least didn’t had ample historical precedence for this madness.
If the point of supporting Ukraine is to support the international order of respecting borders, then an absolutist interpretation would mean you stop at your border when repelling invaders.
On the other hand, that would certainly result in invaders loading up on personnel and materiel on their side of the border until they reached some critical mass for a re invasion.
A lot of people might not remember the first Gulf War where the international community defending Kuwait stopped at the Iraq border. I think it could be argued that was a mistake on multiple levels, even ignoring everything we know that came after.
It’s simply not credible for a group of countries responsible for constant invasions of other countries to claim to be defending borders or supporting any sort of international law. The US at this very moment is occupying a larger percentage of Syria than Russia is of Ukraine.
That is just what-about-ism. The US doing bad things is no reason to allow other nations to fight imperialistic wars.
Nah it’s not just whataboutism, this is a conflict between NATO and Russia. NATO is claiming to have some moral superiority in this conflict, but it’s very obvious that NATO is fighting an imperialistic war for control of Ukraine.
Ah, yes of course. How could I miss how supplying the people of a sovereign nation with weapons and intelligence in a defensive ground war against a foreign invader is building an empire. Thank you for pointing out the obvious.
Ah yes, NATO is just altruistically helping the right wing regime that the west installed in Ukraine after overthrowing the legitimate democratically elected government. 🤡
Even if that were true (and I don’t think even Putin is still pretending that this is what his special operation is about), you think the right recourse is to invade that country and attempt to annex it into your empire? Killing hundreds of thousands in a war of attrition? Really amazing peaceful moves from the certainly democratically elected leftist Russian president, bravo.
You don’t have to take Putin’s word for it, the head of NATO has already admitted this publicly:
https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/opinions_218172.htm
That’s not what the war is about. https://mearsheimer.substack.com/p/who-caused-the-ukraine-war
However, if you don’t trust a renowned political scientist like Mearsheimer, RAND published a whole study titled “Extending Russia” that explains in detail why the US wanted to provoke a conflict in Ukraine https://www.rand.org/pubs/research_reports/RR3063.html
The war could’ve been over within a month, but the west sabotaged negotiations. Pretty clear who wants this war to keep going. The war could’ve been avoided entirely if the west didn’t insist on NATO expansion and didn’t overthrow the government in Ukraine.
That is a nice big quote you got there. But it doesn’t say anything about right-wing governments, coups or anything the like. And I said, for the sake of the argument I’ll pretend with you it is true.
Of course, surrendering is a great defensive strategy. I’m sure WW2 would have been a whole lot shorter if Stalin just capitulated right away. But I’ve got another brain tickler for you. The aggressor can end a war immediately, by not even starting it :)
What on earth are you talking about occupying Syria?
Edit: they’re misconstruing the 32-country military coalition that’s been trying to degrade Da’esh since 2014 as the US military by itself occupying sovereign territory.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_against_the_Islamic_State
Some may remember the breathless daily & weekly map updates on the news showing areas controlled by Da’esh changing. Might remember the coalition partnering with various groups of differing militancy & reliability. I think including us (the coalition) fucking over Iraqi Kurds…? I believe because Syria hated them? Or loved them?
So, y’know, absolutely nothing like Russia’s completely unprovoked, unilateral decision to invade Ukraine because Putin was afraid of Ukraine getting too chummy with NATO countries, possibility even considering joining NATO.
Those two statements are in the same phrase… My god
So your contention is that Nation A considering joining an alliance that Nation B doesn’t like - not actually joining, just considering - is a provocation worthy of military invasion?
Jesus what a world that would be.
See, that’s an entirely different statement. Threatening to join Russia’s geopolitical rival’s military alliance while bordering Russia, is provocation. The acts in Donbas since 2014 are provocation. Is it “worthy of military invasion”? I don’t believe so. The proto-fascist Russian government is clearly not acting entirely out of pure will and self defense, and I’ll be the last to defend it since I have loved ones directly suffering under that government. But it’s important to frame things correctly, and yes, threatening to join NATO while bordering Russia is a huge provocation.
Particularly, NATO has no history of defensiveness (as far as I know it has never intervened for the defensive purposes it’s supposed to uphold), but it has a history of offensiveness. Yugoslavia and Libya can both attest to that, and extra-officially (technically not NATO interventions even if many NATO members participated one way or another), countries such as Iraq can also attest. The case of Iraq is a perfect example of what unprovoked invasion in modern times is, and we are still forced to see libs fall heads over heels for a fucking Dick Satan Cheney endorsement to Kamala “most lethal army in the world” Harris.
So, yes, when a country bordering you chooses to join a historically aggressive military alliance that openly challenges you, that’s huge provocation. And it’s important to state so when we talk about the war in Ukraine.
always a wake up call comment to make me realize im on the other world news comm
It’s startling and confusing at times, honestly.
I feel like I must be misreading or having a stroke until I figure it out.
The US is in Syria against the will of the legitimate government of Syria that’s recognized by the UN. This is an invasion and a violation of the sovereignty of Syria. Period.
The fact that you rushed in to try and paint it as something other while bleating about Russia’s completely unprovoked, unilateral decision to invade Ukraine says everything we need to know about you.
I think we’re gonna have to agree to disagree as I see a fundamental difference between a multi national joint military operation targeting international terrorists and a unilateral military operation aimed at reconstituting the USSR.
There is no fundamental difference. International law states that countries are sovereign and cannot be invaded by other countries. Just because a bunch of bandits, who are currently involved in a literal genocide I might add, get together to do it in no way legitimizes it. The fact that you think might makes right is legitimate in one case and not the other shows that your position is hypocritical, and can be safely ignored.
Do you live in a cave? https://www.barrons.com/news/damascus-says-us-occupation-of-syrian-territory-cannot-continue-e97c5e5a
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truly
Updated
proceeded to further embarrass yourself
Amusingly, that was the interpretation I’ve heard some years ago over at reddit from poles malding about USSR marching to Berlin and kicking nazis out of their country in the process.
I would say an absolutist would be justified in crossing the border if they offer that land back at the end of hostilities in exchange for other concessions.
Even if Ukraine doesn’t reclaim all of their land they could offer Russia kursk for some other equal amount of Ukrainian land in any peace talks.
Otherwise if Russia refuses Ukraine is justified in keeping that land.
“The side that stays within its fortifications is beaten”
Napoleon Bonaparte
Not only do you need to strike at the enemy’s territories and hold it to win, you need to threaten to keep it if you want to restore your original borders. Going to the peace table with enemy cities your pocket is a classic way to negotiate for your own land back. The more Russian land the Ukranians take, the more likely we will see a restoration of old borders.
Funnily enough you quote the dude that first planned to ally with Russia but get swept into the prototype of modern geopolitics and attacked it, not staying within his fortifications, and that led to him and his empire being utterly and completely crushed. Though unlike current followers of the evolution of the same geopolitical strategy, he at least didn’t had ample historical precedence for this madness.