This is particularly American sensibility about not drinking alcohol casually around children. It’s very strange. In the UK and Europe, if a kid is having a birthday party at their house it’s completely normal for the adults to be having a casual beer or wine and socialising whilst the children play, obviously not drinking to get drunk and within the legal limits for the driver.
Honestly it’s just pearl clutching. The same people are probably sneaking wine at their 8 year olds little league game in the bubba 64 oz trucker travel tankard.
Given that alcohol is a hard drug with severe social and personal consequences when abused i find that sentiment a bit shortsighted. We rightfully don’t accept casual consumption of cocaine or heroin around children. We shouldn’t set the model that alcohol is just a casual thing to consume on any given afternoon.
Me and many friends as teenagers wen we got shitfaced in unhealthy and dangerous ways just laughed at our parents critizising us, because of how normalized their consumption was.
So between responsible consumption and casual consumption is a huge difference. Especially when there is small kids around, who might end up just drinking from the jar right in their reach.
So hiding it and not telling kids about it is a solution, which makes them curious, and then go eat overboard. Which is what I did.
What is much better is what Europeans do, where they have a much healthier view of alcohol, grow up around it, know what it is and does, and don’t have nearly the unhealthy binging Americans do. On top of that they also aren’t having an opioid crisis.
So did you also do other hard drugs because they were hidden from you? Heroin, Coke, Crack, Meth?
The opiod crisis has an entirely different basis to them, as tons of Americans were made addicted by reckless prescriptions first.
And again, seeing my and other parents drink regularly did not stop us from being reckless around alcohol. Instead what it does makes clear signs of alcoholism not be taken as warning. “Dad had two beers every day, whats the harm in three?”
There is things the US does badly, like not allowing alcohol until 21 and then giving access to vodka and beer alike, where many European countries have different ages for booze and lower strength alcohol. But the idea that people in Europe are more responsible around alcohol doesn’t hold to reality. The US had about 120k alcohol related deaths per year, which jumped to 180k with the pandemic. Germany is at a stable 60-70k a year. But Germany has less than one fourth of the US population.
Alcohol is a hard drug. The opiod crisis not being such a thing in Europe is a result of opiods not being downplayed and casualized like in the US, so the reason why the US has an opiod crisis and we have such an alcohol problem are similar. But you drew a line from casual alcohol abuse to somehow work against opiod problems. But more alcohol abuse doesnt lead to less opiod abuse or the other way round.
What are you even talking about? The per capita death rates differ from what you’re posting (making up?) here. According to data from the World Health Organization (WHO), the death rate from alcohol use disorders in Germany is 9.2 per 100,000 population, whereas in the United States, it is 14.3 per 100,000 population. That’s a substantial difference. Are you a recovering alcoholic or lose someone to alcohol or something? It’s fine that you are against alcohol, but you’re making false comparisons and citing false data to do so.
Your own Wikipedia link puts alcohol dramatically lower than cocaine and heroin in terms of dependence and harm. Were you raised by alcoholics or something? If so, sorry, that sucks.
Social harm is much higher with alcohol. There used to be a graph plotting both social and physical harm, but it got replaced with the one you criticise, effectively stating the same thing. Alcohol in its effects for both the individual and society is a hard drug, like coke, heroin or meth.
But the way you get defensive makes me wonder why aconowledging alcohol to be a serious drug with huge damage both to individuals and society is so difficult.
“its just one glass of wine” can be equally said with “its just a small bump of coke” or “its just half an oxy”
No, not really. Each person is different, set and setting are different, circumstances can be different.
In any case that silly graph you posted was made by:
“opinions and judgment of 15 researchers, doctors, and a journalist. These opinions were exchanged and discussed during a 1-day workshop” … “given that it has no input other than the experience and knowledge of the participants involved, it is unlikely to be unbiased”
Although to be fair, the group that made that study now is advocating ways to get medical cannabis and psychedelics to people, which is more or less in line with the graph I suppose.
We rightfully don’t accept casual consumption of cocaine or heroin around children.
Disingenuous bullshit - there is no such thing as “casual consumption of heroin.” You can’t use heroin without getting high, but you can absolutely drink alcohol without getting drunk.
You’re unironically putting alcohol on par with cocaine and heroin? You really missed your calling as a roller-pin-wielding prohibitionist by 100 years.
It’s strange here in the US too. I don’t know anyone that has a problem with that. That kind of puritanical attitude about drinking is not the prevailing sentiment here. Sure, my friends and I aren’t getting plastered at BBQ’s like we did in college, but it’s not like we aren’t having some beers at a cookout just because half of us have kids now. It’s just a vocal religious minority making a lot of noise. Don’t get me wrong, this country does have a different, more uptight, relationship with alcohol than Europe, but it’s not nearly as extreme as it may appear online and in media.
It does happen though. My wife’s grandmother was an alcohol abolitionist. We’re not talking the 1800s here, I’m not that old. She died in the 2000s. But she was super religious and was part of a temperance movement.
Anyway, once she died, the beer and wine started coming out at family gatherings and they have not turned into raucous affairs. The kids at the gatherings seem to be doing fine.
Nah, my Catholic extended family always had a jug of Carlo Rossi (garbage wine sold in gallon jugs, for those lucky enough to be unfamiliar) at every family gathering. No one was ever worried about there being kids. Evangelicals are just lame.
Also Mexicans drink around their kids during social events all the time. It’s a joke in my family that the only reason adults put on parties for their kids is so they can drink with their friends.
Unwinding after a shit week with a bottle of beer or glass of wine in the evening, with the extended family over for a meal, while kids play games. Tens of millions of Americans are doing this right now.
I don’t want to live in the America where that isn’t normal. That shit is wholesome.
This is particularly American sensibility about not drinking alcohol casually around children
Shockingly this will vary by family. Some families take their kids bar hopping while they drink to excess, some drink casually and not in excess, and some are sober around their kids, and some remain sober all the time. My wife grew up hanging out in bars with her parents biker friends and their kids. She learned to watch some of them and save the good homemade wine when someone was about to topple. I grew up with parents who would have a single drink with dinner one to two times a week and would avoid getting drunk (at least that I know of).
Personally, as a parent and living in an area with a strong alcohol culture and with alcoholic family members, I drink very rarely (the alcoholic family members really kill my desire to drink), and when I do I make sure we have more than enough adults available to parent and drive if needed. I also am very much a lightweight so there is no drinking without getting noticeably giggly and sloppy. My wife feels and acts similarly but is not a lightweight and can realistically drink one drink and be visibly unaffected.
I honestly think the OP is less about the presence of alcohol around children but more just calling out a wine mom as such
As an American, I don’t know that I really see this too much. For Halloween, it’s not uncommon for some houses to give those little shooters to parents. Obviously it’s not good to get sloshed at a kid’s birthday party, but I don’t think too many people put too much weight on a drink or too. Either that, or I don’t put much weight on it, because I’ll have a social beer at noon on a weekday if it feels right.
I was born and raised in the states and I’ve never experienced this. There’s usually beer or wine for the adults who want it at every gathering. The one exception is maybe baptisms but only because the reception is usually in the church hall. Maybe it’s a southern thing? I’ve never been to the south and they do have some weirdly puritan social beliefs.
My brother and others in the family will 100% get drunk around the kids. Nobody is giving kids alcohol nor drunk driving (we have family parties at the family vineyard usually so nobody is driving away)
My wife’s family will 100% get drunk around their kids, and drunk drive with the kids in the car. Seeing that first hand makes us really reluctant to drink at all.
When I was a kid I always asked for a taste when my parents had a drink with the meal. It was just a sip and I never liked it and it burned (it was usually a hard spirit), but I still asked every time.
When my wife was 5 she was being sent to the still to do a taste check and see if the brandy is strong enough yet.
exactly. That’s how I came.to hate beer! hahah Also wine is grape! that’s just nature. We don’t want drunk kids (can you imagine the caos?!) so we don’t let them drink but they have tasted and didn’t like it
I’m American, but Jewish. Wine is part of sabbath dinners. Especially during religious holidays. I was drinking wine at Passover seders when I was 8 or 9.
Amazingly, am not an alcoholic at 47. I do enjoy a small glass of port in the evening though.
So many people trying to say it is normal in the US, but it is the US the one with the rule of having a paper bag to cover alcohol anywhere public. Sure at home it might also be more normal but that is already indicative of a certain point of view which I’m guessing is what OP was talking about.
but it is the US the one with the rule of having a paper bag to cover alcohol anywhere public.
No it isn’t. This is a state-by-state thing. Many states don’t allow you to consume alcohol in public, period. Some don’t care (I think Louisiana is pretty lax regarding this if I recall?)
To make it even more complicated, counties, of which states are composed, can also set the terms of alcohol use in their jurisdiction. There’s “dry” counties all around the US where alcohol cannot be legally purchased.
And then there are counties where public consumption is fine and prostitution is legal. So… idk. It’s a big country. Montana, just one of the states, is larger than Germany, and it’s only the 4th largest state. The largest state is over four times bigger than Montana.
Was always normal in my family. Smoking and drinking indoors all day. Used to come home smelling like shit. But there were alcoholics. Good people, though.
That is the way we had birthday parties too, and they are the best. Invite the whole family not just the kid. Nobody HAS to drink, and I didn’t because hosting, but it’s more hospitable to have adult beverages available. Often a “fancy drinks” area for the kids too, with colorful non alcoholic drinks and garnishes for them to create their own drinks.
So, so much better than a house full of kids all the same age. Kids running around in packs, adults chilling.
I come from Germany and drinking around children is normal here, and it’s legal for children to start drinking at 14 years old.
However, just because it’s considered normal doesn’t mean it’s a good thing, alcohol gets played down way too much in our society, it’s one of the most dangerous and addictive drugs on the planet
Brits often refer to them like this. It’s a bit like a Californian saying “California and the USA” - it’s just a perspective thing. We know we’re part of the continent of Europe.
This is particularly American sensibility about not drinking alcohol casually around children. It’s very strange. In the UK and Europe, if a kid is having a birthday party at their house it’s completely normal for the adults to be having a casual beer or wine and socialising whilst the children play, obviously not drinking to get drunk and within the legal limits for the driver.
Honestly it’s just pearl clutching. The same people are probably sneaking wine at their 8 year olds little league game in the bubba 64 oz trucker travel tankard.
From people close the me, the ones that are MAGA/religious all were actually the most depraved ones when they were younger.
I don’t know if they think of they have to make it up for those years to still be able to get to heaven or something.
Youth church functions were always more depraved than anything agnostic.
You don’t care so much about Jesus’ blood covering up your sins unless you’ve got some shit to cover up.
Hiding it from kids obviously will prevent them from ever using it or being curious!
God forbid we have open and honest conversations with kids so they learn how to use things responsibly.
Given that alcohol is a hard drug with severe social and personal consequences when abused i find that sentiment a bit shortsighted. We rightfully don’t accept casual consumption of cocaine or heroin around children. We shouldn’t set the model that alcohol is just a casual thing to consume on any given afternoon.
Me and many friends as teenagers wen we got shitfaced in unhealthy and dangerous ways just laughed at our parents critizising us, because of how normalized their consumption was.
So between responsible consumption and casual consumption is a huge difference. Especially when there is small kids around, who might end up just drinking from the jar right in their reach.
So hiding it and not telling kids about it is a solution, which makes them curious, and then go eat overboard. Which is what I did.
What is much better is what Europeans do, where they have a much healthier view of alcohol, grow up around it, know what it is and does, and don’t have nearly the unhealthy binging Americans do. On top of that they also aren’t having an opioid crisis.
So did you also do other hard drugs because they were hidden from you? Heroin, Coke, Crack, Meth?
The opiod crisis has an entirely different basis to them, as tons of Americans were made addicted by reckless prescriptions first.
And again, seeing my and other parents drink regularly did not stop us from being reckless around alcohol. Instead what it does makes clear signs of alcoholism not be taken as warning. “Dad had two beers every day, whats the harm in three?”
There is things the US does badly, like not allowing alcohol until 21 and then giving access to vodka and beer alike, where many European countries have different ages for booze and lower strength alcohol. But the idea that people in Europe are more responsible around alcohol doesn’t hold to reality. The US had about 120k alcohol related deaths per year, which jumped to 180k with the pandemic. Germany is at a stable 60-70k a year. But Germany has less than one fourth of the US population.
Got it, so alcohol and hard drugs are different and we shouldn’t directly compare them like that
Alcohol is a hard drug. The opiod crisis not being such a thing in Europe is a result of opiods not being downplayed and casualized like in the US, so the reason why the US has an opiod crisis and we have such an alcohol problem are similar. But you drew a line from casual alcohol abuse to somehow work against opiod problems. But more alcohol abuse doesnt lead to less opiod abuse or the other way round.
What are you even talking about? The per capita death rates differ from what you’re posting (making up?) here. According to data from the World Health Organization (WHO), the death rate from alcohol use disorders in Germany is 9.2 per 100,000 population, whereas in the United States, it is 14.3 per 100,000 population. That’s a substantial difference. Are you a recovering alcoholic or lose someone to alcohol or something? It’s fine that you are against alcohol, but you’re making false comparisons and citing false data to do so.
https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/73/wr/mm7308a1.htm
180k/330 Mio = 54 Alcohol related deaths per year and 100k people in the US.
https://www.spiegel.de/gesundheit/diagnose/suchtbericht-alkohol-und-tabak-toeten-jedes-jahr-zehntausende-menschen-in-deutschland-a-19d17c83-3439-4291-8034-a6f32325e8a7
60k / 80 Mio = 75 Alcohol related deaths per year and 100 k people in Germany.
More people per capita die in Germany from alcohol abuse than in the US. I have no idea which numbers you have there. They are way off.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcohol_and_drug_abuse
and “its just one glass of wine” can be equally said with “its just a small bump of coke” or “its just half an oxy”
Your own Wikipedia link puts alcohol dramatically lower than cocaine and heroin in terms of dependence and harm. Were you raised by alcoholics or something? If so, sorry, that sucks.
Social harm is much higher with alcohol. There used to be a graph plotting both social and physical harm, but it got replaced with the one you criticise, effectively stating the same thing. Alcohol in its effects for both the individual and society is a hard drug, like coke, heroin or meth.
But the way you get defensive makes me wonder why aconowledging alcohol to be a serious drug with huge damage both to individuals and society is so difficult.
K.
No, not really. Each person is different, set and setting are different, circumstances can be different.
In any case that silly graph you posted was made by:
“opinions and judgment of 15 researchers, doctors, and a journalist. These opinions were exchanged and discussed during a 1-day workshop” … “given that it has no input other than the experience and knowledge of the participants involved, it is unlikely to be unbiased”
Although to be fair, the group that made that study now is advocating ways to get medical cannabis and psychedelics to people, which is more or less in line with the graph I suppose.
I am all about being honest about calling alcohol a drug, but a “hard drug”? Buddy…
See my comment here: https://feddit.org/post/4625794/3061984
Disingenuous bullshit - there is no such thing as “casual consumption of heroin.” You can’t use heroin without getting high, but you can absolutely drink alcohol without getting drunk.
Yeah, not drunk, just a little tipsy, its just to take the edge off, just to relax a bit…
You’re unironically putting alcohol on par with cocaine and heroin? You really missed your calling as a roller-pin-wielding prohibitionist by 100 years.
Not even that. Could’ve been a DARE spokesperson.
It’s strange here in the US too. I don’t know anyone that has a problem with that. That kind of puritanical attitude about drinking is not the prevailing sentiment here. Sure, my friends and I aren’t getting plastered at BBQ’s like we did in college, but it’s not like we aren’t having some beers at a cookout just because half of us have kids now. It’s just a vocal religious minority making a lot of noise. Don’t get me wrong, this country does have a different, more uptight, relationship with alcohol than Europe, but it’s not nearly as extreme as it may appear online and in media.
It does happen though. My wife’s grandmother was an alcohol abolitionist. We’re not talking the 1800s here, I’m not that old. She died in the 2000s. But she was super religious and was part of a temperance movement.
Anyway, once she died, the beer and wine started coming out at family gatherings and they have not turned into raucous affairs. The kids at the gatherings seem to be doing fine.
This is a very large country, and the culture (alcohol in particular) varies wildly by location.
They need to protect the children from alcohol and trans people because then they get shot at in schools.
Nah, my Catholic extended family always had a jug of Carlo Rossi (garbage wine sold in gallon jugs, for those lucky enough to be unfamiliar) at every family gathering. No one was ever worried about there being kids. Evangelicals are just lame.
Also Mexicans drink around their kids during social events all the time. It’s a joke in my family that the only reason adults put on parties for their kids is so they can drink with their friends.
Bro it’s perfectly normal for Americans to do this too…
I swear, the Twitter snowflakes want to use the lamest of dunks to own the Libs. Then they fail to realize that they might do this themselves.
Aww, who am I kidding. Twitter shills don’t engage in family functions, or have kids for that matter.
Where I live you can be absolutely sure the adults are getting drunk
This is a generalization. Lots of American families of all backgrounds can have alcohol during family meals and social time.
People have drinks at birthday parties. At dinners. All of the above.
Unwinding after a shit week with a bottle of beer or glass of wine in the evening, with the extended family over for a meal, while kids play games. Tens of millions of Americans are doing this right now.
I don’t want to live in the America where that isn’t normal. That shit is wholesome.
Bad news! Vice squads are coming, no more fun for you!
Shockingly this will vary by family. Some families take their kids bar hopping while they drink to excess, some drink casually and not in excess, and some are sober around their kids, and some remain sober all the time. My wife grew up hanging out in bars with her parents biker friends and their kids. She learned to watch some of them and save the good homemade wine when someone was about to topple. I grew up with parents who would have a single drink with dinner one to two times a week and would avoid getting drunk (at least that I know of).
Personally, as a parent and living in an area with a strong alcohol culture and with alcoholic family members, I drink very rarely (the alcoholic family members really kill my desire to drink), and when I do I make sure we have more than enough adults available to parent and drive if needed. I also am very much a lightweight so there is no drinking without getting noticeably giggly and sloppy. My wife feels and acts similarly but is not a lightweight and can realistically drink one drink and be visibly unaffected.
I honestly think the OP is less about the presence of alcohol around children but more just calling out a wine mom as such
As an American, I don’t know that I really see this too much. For Halloween, it’s not uncommon for some houses to give those little shooters to parents. Obviously it’s not good to get sloshed at a kid’s birthday party, but I don’t think too many people put too much weight on a drink or too. Either that, or I don’t put much weight on it, because I’ll have a social beer at noon on a weekday if it feels right.
I was born and raised in the states and I’ve never experienced this. There’s usually beer or wine for the adults who want it at every gathering. The one exception is maybe baptisms but only because the reception is usually in the church hall. Maybe it’s a southern thing? I’ve never been to the south and they do have some weirdly puritan social beliefs.
Yeah, I’ve seen it in the south and in Utah, both very religious, very odd areas.
Pretty normal in the u.s. as well. Usually when there is a large family gathering like a wedding.
My brother and others in the family will 100% get drunk around the kids. Nobody is giving kids alcohol nor drunk driving (we have family parties at the family vineyard usually so nobody is driving away)
My wife’s family will 100% get drunk around their kids, and drunk drive with the kids in the car. Seeing that first hand makes us really reluctant to drink at all.
When I was a kid I always asked for a taste when my parents had a drink with the meal. It was just a sip and I never liked it and it burned (it was usually a hard spirit), but I still asked every time.
When my wife was 5 she was being sent to the still to do a taste check and see if the brandy is strong enough yet.
exactly. That’s how I came.to hate beer! hahah Also wine is grape! that’s just nature. We don’t want drunk kids (can you imagine the caos?!) so we don’t let them drink but they have tasted and didn’t like it
I’m American, but Jewish. Wine is part of sabbath dinners. Especially during religious holidays. I was drinking wine at Passover seders when I was 8 or 9.
Amazingly, am not an alcoholic at 47. I do enjoy a small glass of port in the evening though.
My god, it’s incredible you made it out alive.
I have suffered for my port.
😆
So many people trying to say it is normal in the US, but it is the US the one with the rule of having a paper bag to cover alcohol anywhere public. Sure at home it might also be more normal but that is already indicative of a certain point of view which I’m guessing is what OP was talking about.
No it isn’t. This is a state-by-state thing. Many states don’t allow you to consume alcohol in public, period. Some don’t care (I think Louisiana is pretty lax regarding this if I recall?)
Ah, understood, thanks for pointing it out
To make it even more complicated, counties, of which states are composed, can also set the terms of alcohol use in their jurisdiction. There’s “dry” counties all around the US where alcohol cannot be legally purchased.
And then there are counties where public consumption is fine and prostitution is legal. So… idk. It’s a big country. Montana, just one of the states, is larger than Germany, and it’s only the 4th largest state. The largest state is over four times bigger than Montana.
I don’t know anyone in the US who feels this way.
Was always normal in my family. Smoking and drinking indoors all day. Used to come home smelling like shit. But there were alcoholics. Good people, though.
That is the way we had birthday parties too, and they are the best. Invite the whole family not just the kid. Nobody HAS to drink, and I didn’t because hosting, but it’s more hospitable to have adult beverages available. Often a “fancy drinks” area for the kids too, with colorful non alcoholic drinks and garnishes for them to create their own drinks.
So, so much better than a house full of kids all the same age. Kids running around in packs, adults chilling.
I come from Germany and drinking around children is normal here, and it’s legal for children to start drinking at 14 years old.
However, just because it’s considered normal doesn’t mean it’s a good thing, alcohol gets played down way too much in our society, it’s one of the most dangerous and addictive drugs on the planet
You do realize the UK is part of Europe, right?
The britisch Isles are part of Europe.
Let’s have a trigger warning on that, please.
Cries in Brexit
Not for the lack of trying!
Brits often refer to them like this. It’s a bit like a Californian saying “California and the USA” - it’s just a perspective thing. We know we’re part of the continent of Europe.