I thought I understood, but I still have Beehaw content in my feed, so I guess I don’t understand after all… Can someone dumb it down for me?
We need a c/FederatedDrama write up.
wait why did they defederate us?
lemmy.world and and sh.itjust.works have a lot of users and it seems like beehaw was getting too much content from them. There are apparently only 4 people running beehaw and they felt they couldn’t moderate all the content and felt like it was a vulnerability that lemmy.world and sh.itjust.works just let anyone sign up.
participate the effort to create an alternative to Reddit people leave Reddit to join the alternative be unable to handle the influx of people trying to use the alternative to a website with millions of users
Their reasons are much more selfish than that. They insist on only having 4 moderators while never scaling up, and they don’t like how federation allows users from other instances to post on their instance because it disrupts their rigid ideal community vibe. According to their suggestions on “improving moderation tooling”, the ideal federation setup is that their users can post on other instances, but other instances’ users can’t post on theirs, so they can save time on moderation work. The moderation work of other instance admins for their users doesn’t matter, clearly.
Every interaction I’ve had with Beehaw so far has reminded me of overlord Reddit mods that think they are god.
I read their post explaining the decision, but it seems like it is at odds with itself. If your goal is to create a safe space, why are you using a federated service? I understand you have the option to defederate, but at that point why didn’t you just setup a standalone message board. It just feels that their use case doesn’t fit the system.
Isn’t this like… the whole point of the Federated Universe? The mods do Beehaw want their server to be a “safe space”. They’re perfectly within their rights to restrict who can post in their own community. But you, the user, are not in any way beholden to their whims, and can make an account on any other Lemmy instance, or create your own and make it as restricted or unrestricted as you please.
It seems logical to me that the creators of a safe space for marginalized communities would restrict their community from the internet at large because people on the Internet feel emboldened by anonymity to attack others.
Yes, the point of the Fediverse is that everyone is free to associate with groups they choose. There is nothing wrong with creating instances that are very isolated. What Beehaw wants with the “improving moderation tooling”, however, is a safe space where the network is restricted from them, but they still have full access to the rest of the network. That suggestion is what I was calling selfish, because this way their users would be parasiting off the content and moderation of other instances while giving nothing back.
I still don’t see how this is not in line with the ideals and values of the Fediverse. If other instances don’t want to take on the extra moderation you are referring to, they can simplify defederate from Beehaw, too.
Every instance can do whatever it wants, and if other instances don’t like that then they can both go their own ways.
I wouldn’t call it selfish. They want tools for more granular control on their instance. That’s perfectly fine. If they limit who can post or comment based on the instance they are from. The other instances are perfectly free to limit their users as well in response or for their own arbitrary reasons.
There seems to be a distinct lack of controls across lemmy as a whole. The only option for them is all or nothing at the moment.
I think the big take away is for users to think about what instance they create their accounts and communities on.
Ya I think a big part of the pushback is that I think a lot of people chose their “home” instance based on the guidance provided by the instance admins and then lost access to a lot of the network because of other decisions made by those same admins
The community vibe is definitely a huge motivation. They want to be able to control the sort of people on their instance which they can’t do if the mass user bases from lemmy.world etc. that are (relatively) neutral have access. It’s a shame because they had some good communities established.
Yeah, I don’t believe for one second that those 4 admins have actually, meaningfully, personally vetted 11,000+ users. People have posted (sorry, I dont have the link) here that they just filled the “application” out with nonsense and still got approved.
Yeah, I don’t believe for one second that those 4 admins have actually, meaningfully, personally vetted 11,000+ users.
So, if they are struggling the moderate a community with 11,000+ users, it would make sense for them to limit an even large number of external users for the time being until they feel they have things better in control, correct?
That’s not what I’m commenting on, but yeah, naturally. It’s their instance, they can do what they want.
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From what I understand, if you, using a lemmy.world account, post something on a beehaw instance, only people from lemmy.world would be able to see it.
So I guess the next question is do we now recreate beehaw communities that were popular and fragment the community, or do we make accounts on a smaller instance that has access to beehaw.org and lemmy.world? I’m not about to start logging in and out of multiple accounts because beehaw mods are getting butt hurt…
I think this post explains it pretty well.
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Lemmy.world still has all the content it pulled from beehaw before they defederated, but they won’t sync anymore, so you won’t see new beehaw updates, and they won’t see any updates from lemmy.world
Was there a reason why they defederated??
Man, This is so cool, Not related to the topic but im able to see yall talk about lemmy from lemmy instances while im on kbin
So when an instance is blocked, it means users on the blocked instance will no longer be able to see that instance’s content. For example, beehaw.org has now blocked lemmy.world. However with the way federation works, the content from beehaw is cached on lemmy.world servers. So you can only see what has already been cached; there will be no updated content on any existing cache.
Edit: here’s a recent post from kbin.social going into further detail on how federation works.
Wrong.beehaw blocked lemmy.world. lemmy.world has not blocked beehaw. lemmy.world will continue to get content from beehaw. beehaw has stopped all content from lemmy.world from comming to beehaw.lemmy.world accounts can still see new post and comments from beehaw but no comments will be responded to by behaw users because they cannot see lemmy.world post or ocmments.nvm looks like their content did stop coming through.
We don’t get posts from their instance, only those that are posted by lemmy.world users, and those posts are also exclusivly ours.
Hmm, maybe your right. I’ll add a edit.
On reddit you could get banned from many subs for posting in a sub that its moderators didn’t like. And in the fediverse it’s exactly the same. So what’s the point? I’m here, because I hoped that it won’t be like reddit.
That’s just the nature of any site that allows community moderation. If you’re looking for something different, try fark.com
EXACTLY
So for those who know this better, should Lemmy Kbin users look for alternative to these communities (games/gaming for me)
You should be looking at multiple communities on the same topic just as a matter of course. Single mega-communities really aught to be discouraged, since they actually crush meaningful engagement (most posts don’t ever get seen, most comments don’t ever get seen, etc.)
If you follow multiple communities on the same topic, you can get the same kind of constant content stream – if that’s what you’re concerned about – while also actually having your contributions noticed.
Plus, not having single points of failure is the lesson everyone should be taking away from Twitter and Reddit.
I don’t believe any kbin instances have been de-federated by beehaw…
Yeah, but if people were intentionally being trolls, it stands to reason that they’ll hop on the next available open registration site and begin their shenanigans there, getting us banned too.
From what I’ve seen, for the most part the KBin magazines have been great, but we’ve definitely got a few people that I’ve seen that might intentionally start harassing trans people for instance and if they make lives difficult for the beehaw mods, we might get banned too just by association.
Open signups aren’t novel on the fediverse, lots of places have them. The problem is having them without following up and banning problematic users… but yes I expect that if stricter instance-wide moderation doesn’t happen this instance will end up being defederated by most of the fediverse (with mastodon at least that seems to be the norm).
I’m hoping moderation has been been lacking because Ernest is just overwhelmed with the amount of load, and that it is fixed soon, if not I’ll end up moving on once admins start defederating it (probably to another kbin instance).
You have Beehaw content that was synced before they defederated.
Federation isn’t accessing remote content on remote instances, it’s content mirroring. So, anything that was mirrored before Beehaw defederated will stay exactly where it is. You just won’t see any updates to it.
At least, not from Beehaw.
It’s weird because I still see posts from the News@beehaw in my feed.
Source: https://lemmy.world/post/168259
Basically we can post new content, but only people on lemmy.world can see it. It doesn’t get sent to any other instance. Any old posts will still be there but any new interactions will not get sent outside of lemmy.world.
Suppose there was a comment thread containing a back-and-forth conversation between a kbin.social user and a lemmy.world user. What would a user on beehaw.org see, given that they are federated with one but not the other?
Users on Beehaw would not see anything from Lemmy.world. If it’s still federated with Kbin, then they would see that content.
Likewise, anyone on Lemmy.world would not see content or be able to access communities from Beehaw.
So for a Beehaw user, would they see all of the the Kbinner’s comments and it would look as if they were talking to themselves? Or would they only see the top level Kbinner comment and nothing else (due to their instance not seeing the Beehaw comment and therefore not seeing children of that comment either)?
Beehaw can pull in content from other instances, but users from those instances cannot comment or post back to Beehaw. If you were interacting with content coming from Beehaw on a different instance, in practice it would feel like you’re shadow-banned as nobody on Beehaw would be able to see or reply to you.
So given participant 1, 2. 1 is on .world, 2 is on kbin
P1: message a
P2: message b
P1: message c
P2: message dWould a beehaw user see just messages b and d? What would it look like they are replying to?
Would they see the comment chain at all as it was started by P1?
There’s two different scenarios, a community not hosted on beehaw:
they wouldn’t see the chain at all.
On a community hosted on beehaw:
Message a would only exist on world’s local copy of the thread, nobody not on world can see it. (This local copy is also not getting updated by anyone not on world.)
Basically, the true thread exists on the instance that hosts the community. Defederation cuts off communication with one server. If it’s the server that hosts it, it’s a lot more severe.
I used to meet artists who made electronic music. I would get permission from as many artists as I could to use their tracks and put together digital mixtape compilation albums for free. It was a good time.
Hey, TigerClaw. Looks like the Lemmy error of throwing your comment into another thread happened.
Sometimes, i dream about cheese.
🤣
